welcome to split Nick with me half
Saqqara mustafa standing in for a few
more weeks for George Galloway and fill
me Gary Islam being flavor of the decade
it seems continues to generate much
interest from the media and wider
society after each terror attacks
journalist and political figures feel
they need to say or do something an
attempt to explain the situation sir
trevor phillips former chair of equality
and human rights commission has been
asked to analyze a large scale survey
commissioned by channel for that
provides we are told great insight into
the muslim mindset to discuss ICM survey
on what Muslims and thinking is media
spokesman for the Muslims Public Affairs
Committee mpac resin adine Rosa welcome
to the show Bella Luna Rossa I'm just
curious what is your overall sentiment
of it because it obviously prior to the
publishing of the survey there was a lot
of talk about it and then eventually
when the show aired on Thursday know
what did you feel when you watched it to
be honest it was more of the same what
we've seen in the past you know
especially from Trevor Phillips kind the
talk of multiculturalism has failed etc
well I found very worrying I mean we can
talk about you know how the data was
analyzed etc people have done that
already for me it was he was it was like
you taken all his main phrases and
topics from the handbook of David
Cameron British values he was talking
about Orthodox British society what is
that he was talking about I need to be
much more muscular with our values and
that was exactly what David Cameron said
I remember last year he actually said
you know for far too long we've been
tolerant of people just because they
obey the law we need to do more than
that I mean something like a villain
would say in a comic book and it's and
Trevor Phillips was echoing those exact
same sentiments and for me and for a lot
of Muslims for them it was it felt like
this is just a PR exercise for the
government to legitimize the
surveillance bill the snoopers charter
and the counter extremism strategy which
so many people are against and for me I
think it was just about trying to
swing public opinion more so and say
look look out for these Muslims are here
to take over their barbaric their
uncivilized their the other one thing
that strikes me and strikes me really
every time there's a similar survey that
appears is the focusing on homosexuality
Islam and homosexuality and the reality
is I mean up until a few years ago I
remember the tabloids they would out gay
celebrities and a lot of comedy
materials about limp wrists and gain you
Enders so just appears as if only Muslim
to homophobic yeah but you know what if
another survey was conducted in an
all-white sort of course world
environment well that's exactly but see
this it's more than that for me half so
is that it it's the views that Islam has
an homosexuality are extremely similar
if not the same as Christianity and
Judaism but Islam is singled out and so
for me and for many more sims they say
you're actually not genuine on the topic
you don't actually care about the topic
and if you're so morally outraged why
don't we hold Nicky Morgan to account
who when she was the secretary for a
think of for gay rights she actually
voted against why abstain from voting
for people for gay marriage so hang on
to where's your outrage then I think
that's what many Muslim say that
actually you don't care about the issue
for you is just a stick to beat Muslims
with and we're not going to tolerate
that and to be honest Muslims position
if you were to talk to the average
Muslim about homosexuality their
positions fairly clear which is Islam's
doesn't condone it by the same time we
don't go around kicking someone's heads
in about you know if they gave it that's
a very simple thing and something that
jews and christians believe in most
monotheistic religions believe anyway so
I think for most Muslims is this
spotlight about homosexuality and any
other issue it's just a stick to beat us
with and it's to further a narrative
that says or they'll never be as
civilized and as liberal as us and I
think that was very interesting I saw a
tweet about the the topic someone said
according to the survey which is very
skewed it said fifty two percent of
people apparently we're not wanted
homosexuality to be you know to be made
illegal but actually that was the same
percentage of Tory MPs that were that
were against it voting for gay marriage
etc so it's where do you you know it's
where this is selective outrage on some
issues oh god where the champions of
liberalism and values etc but when
when it comes to my only when it comes
to Muslims and that's for many Muslims
just doesn't sit right in that it's just
an excuse to to beat us and that is
exactly understand the other side of the
coin that's exactly what it outrages the
Muslims yes they're being biased than
and selected upon that but also general
is going through that is always talking
about us as a immigrant community you
talk to you know my younger sister or
someone who knows whose child was born
at they're not an immigrant anymore at
which point do you stop referring to him
as or they come from an immigrant
background don't half of the people in
this country come from an immigrant
background where everyone was born in
England you know don't have some roots
somewhere in London itself the majority
are from a minority but you see that's
the thing that's always it's it's and
part of it is it's a racist under tongue
which says that these people are the
other the fifth column Oh as Pro Phillip
said a nation within a nation and that
phrase it's it's shocking because the
same kind of language and cut the racist
undertones you've seen from other people
and to be honest people some racist they
love to try and Phillips documentary
because they can say look look we're not
real cuz look Mary exactly yeah that
Trevor Phillips said it and he was a
former race in equalities minister so we
can't you know we can't be bad we can't
be bad and I think we'll actually know
Trevor Phillips has a very poor track
record on this whole thing remember a
couple of years I got him in a
documentary about stereotypes and about
you know different what we're not
allowed to say about race and you know
he said many of the stereotypes are true
the whole thing is cringe-worthy and
watching yesterday eh it was so long bu
was really boring but see it was the
same peddling of the Islamic phobic
narrative that sadly we've gotten used
to in society but as you said it is in
echoing david cameron's and the British
values and do you think it's succeeding
though yes and the reason is because any
time we've seen a you know like a
terrible terrorist attack that's taken
place so let's take Paris Brussels etc
what happens is often you see our
government essentially using that as an
excuse to push through legislation but
let's forget the terrorist attacks then
you've got media spokespeople you've got
pundits you've got political
commentators you've got think tanks
you've got MPs themselves who will say
all the slums a bit if the Islam doesn't
fit in with us all they're up to get us
there extremists
all these immigrants coming to the
country the refugees look they're all
you know economic migrants all this
language what it does is it makes the
average Joe who doesn't know any better
will say maybe there is this is the
biggest problem we face you'll forget
Panama forget the Panama papers you know
let's forget the fact that we've got
bankers that have you know they're
decimated this country's yeah yeah let's
not talk about any of that stuff instead
let's focus on this five percent of the
population who apparently are the cause
of all the world's problems I'm
surprised they haven't started blaming
us for global warming it um French
actually the French Prime Minister has
reached rigored the debate on the
headscarf and one Muslim activists
famously said well I'll tell you what
let's rename unemployment Islam and
hopefully you he'll be able to tell you
in that sense but do you think that is
it is truly a diversion from the
realities and the problems that the
politicians are completely ignore well
undoubtedly I mean it's you know if you
I'm gonna do as a survey that she asked
people how many Muslims do you think
there are in Europe and the UK and
numbers were inflated amongst most white
British people who have Christian
background because they cost me told
these people are the fifth column
looking to take over and they need to
skew the conversation and you know it's
we should be having an adult
conversation about multiculturalism
about dealing with the refugee crisis
about the Panama papers about the
illegal wars that our government has
waged but none of that what they were
talk about is hmm what's that single
Muslim mother in Bradford what's she
doing because she's part of this this
plan and I think the other part of it
that really annoys me other Muslims is
is that it's it's always referring to us
as a monolithic community as if we're
all on one big whatsapp group planning
things and it's really annoying that
hang on what someone does somewhere else
in the country is not on me and it's
very frustrating because Anders Breivik
a white terrorist from a Christian
background in Europe he is treated as an
individual but if one individual commits
any crime in the UK who's of a Muslim
background somehow got only do with your
religion and it's very frustrating
because all it does is it leads to more
intolerance and we're seeing it spill
over into more violence so I mean this
documentary wasn't that great but all it
did was well just another nail in that
coffin that says yeah Muslims are bad
yeah they're against us and it all
starts to snow
and ironically it comes from channel 4
the exact channel where it's news anchor
cathy newman was faking that hole she
was ushered out yes I remember yeah it's
channel 4 i've had a couple of these
pieces in the past i mean you know and
trevor phillips as well so it's actually
not that surprising why i've seen them
in channel 4 i'd produce that jihad ease
next door documentary 2 and all it does
is is the perfect backdrop for the
government because people are less
likely to be outraged and fight back
about their rights being taken if you
tell them they're hang on these people
are looking to take over and in that
sense as bad as it was they did a great
job for the government because it
legitimizes their policies yeah but the
reason why I asked you why it whether it
succeeds or not among the public is when
when it first came out I heard it once
on the radio and not much else in so I
wonder whether the public sensing wait a
minute this is becoming Charlie's this
is becoming a bit too the thing is for
some people it did I think you know like
oh come on what do you mean more British
Muslims really think what are you trying
to get her but also at the same time
these societies become quite polarized I
find that some people are very set in
their views about Muslims that that's it
you're bad you're all evil and that's
that nothing that you say or do will
change my opinion on them you're all
terrorist sympathizers etc and then and
what you and I think to be honest
there's two problems one is as a Muslim
community we're not doing enough to
tackle this stuff and actually you know
when this documentary color or it's a
standard response from the Muslims
you'll get some Muslims on social media
who will call out which is really good
and we need more of that but if you look
at the Muslim institutions they were
very apathetic in addressing these
problems and young Muslims who are
looking to take some organized action to
tackle racism to tackle Islamophobia to
tackle even local issues of drug crime
whatever unemployment they can't go to
the institutions to address them so
that's one part of the problem but the
second part the problem is is that
Muslims are facing an industry and
Islamophobia industry that is working
flat out from everything from
documentaries articles whatever is to
say Muslims are a threat to our way of
life and what's happening is is that
that language is becoming more
mainstream and that
what's very worrying diets we are always
seen as the problem everything is our
fault and it does spill over into a lot
more violence look after Paris look
after Brussels you know it's things are
getting worse and our government and
Muslim institutions aren't helping the
problem it's briefly and what do you
expect as a consequence of the survey
coming out for one thing and also what
would you expect from the younger
Muslims to do in reaction to all this
rising Islamophobia yeah well from this
particular survey will be interesting
because reality it's the story's kind of
died a death but I mean it will raise
more questions about how these surveys
are conducted because people were quite
angry that they only focused on 20 you
know areas where Muslims made up twenty
percent or more of the population in the
constituency in the UK which is quite
limited because Muslims are quite spread
out across the country so it isn't very
good in that sense I mean there will be
questions asked about that there will be
follow-on discussions you know talks etc
but from the Muslim community's
perspective and young Muslims I think
for them it what's really annoying is is
always being spoken about the other you
know you talk to you know a young 20
year old kid here for him he's British
if this is his country he's not going
anywhere else he lives here you know
he's a Londoner you know wherever he
lives this is his life but he's always
being told no you're different and and
this is the other thing that's very
important remember many of the younger
Muslim generation their entire lives
they've they've lived the war on terror
period that's all they've ever seen I
mean I was a young kid when 911 happened
so I've had a life before nine eleven
you know it's but the propaganda I guess
was a really high up top so most these
kids all they've ever been told is your
evil you don't belong to your religion
is bad and that has a real psychological
impact and then to top it all off
they're told you need to do more to
integrate that's that's like the final
slap is to say you don't belong but you
need to do more to integrate and young
since that just doesn't fly with them
and they're angry and they are venting
you know you see on social media but
really the government if it says we're
all in it together they to prove in
right now their words and the actions
say otherwise as you can see this
subject is huge so we're gonna have to
talk a bit more about it join us after
the break
welcome back on board the Sputnik um
still with me Reza nadeem thank you very
much for staying Rosa you mentioned the
the youth dino young British Muslims who
actually grew up in the context of the
war on terror now marginalization
feeling excluded coming from poor
backgrounds isn't all this environment
and atmosphere of Islamophobia actually
conducive to radicalization a couple of
things on this point you you're right
that it's you know you've got this whole
generation their entire lives that's all
they've heard you know 14 15 year-old
all they've been told Islam is evil and
it does have an impact you know they
just you know if they feel they don't
they're not they don't belong to this
country and if you talk to some of them
you know some of the interviews that
I've been conducted with people that
have joined Isis they were actually said
part of the reason is that they've gone
from here because I say well I'm not
wanted here and they want me there you
know they respect me I'll be a king
there you know they've been sold a false
image of what Isis is you know and and
they and they bought into that so it
definitely plays a role but also with
radicalization see the thing is with in
the UK the conversation that the
government has been leading on where I
declares a shin is so flawed because it
assumes that there's a simple linear
process as if everyone just follows the
same path and become the radical and
this is very important because it leads
to all these massive repercussions so
the government's understanding or
radicalization extremism is Islam is the
main factor you know you wake up one day
read the Quran in the wrong way you're
going to start killing people and so
what they've done is to prevent strategy
and other strategies that the government
has put in place to deal with extremism
what they've done is is that they said
what is it about your religion that
turns you extreme so we've seen cases
where you know I remember they were
there's a local council in the UK that
she said if your child starts to study
too much that might be a sign of
radicalization if they're not studying
enough that's a sign of radicalization
if their trousers are too high sign of
radicalization if they've got you know
facial I thought if they got facial hair
sign of radicalization look and look at
all those little teenagers when they
puberty hits them you tell me they're
not going to have you know you know
short trousers and facial head it
happens is a part of life and it's
you're talking about teenagers being
teenagers and this is the repercussion
though so what happens is they say what
is it about
Islam that turns people radical and so
they start targeting young Muslims and
they feel and it leads to more isolation
more alienation because it makes them
say I can't even be Muslim in this
country and what it does it confirms in
their mind that I'll never be accepted
I'll never being equal her and they
don't want me here and what happens it
leads to a break of that contract
between the citizen of the state that
says this is my country this is my
nation and when that contract is broken
in a person's mind they don't have any
you no sympathy or any it means nothing
to than that relationship well then that
paves the way for others to say well we
need to destroy these people that are
against you that are against Islam and
and taste for me I've always said it
David Cameron and Theresa May are the
best recruiting sergeants the ISIS could
ask for because they do their job for
them every word that comes out of their
mouths about radicalization extremum
just confirms what people like Isis are
saying which is as they hate you for
everything you are that you Muslims will
never be accepted but there's a lack of
common sense in a way because obviously
the Muslim community in Britain's have
well at the very least at least 60 years
old so for the best part of 50 is it
needs we didn't see any radicals coming
out of it so is the government actually
asking questions they will hang on how
come this phenomenon is actually quite
recent and especially if you look at
this sort of recent attacks across units
they've all been committed by homegrown
terrorists I eat Muslims born and bred
in France in Belgium in Britain there's
a problem though to your line of
questioning that is that you're using
common sense and the government doesn't
have not because when it comes to this
stuff is is it's you're asking for what
are the actual root causes of this
problem that's a very adult conversation
and the government's not having that
because if you were to have an adult
conversation what you start to realize
is well actually the wars that we've
waged in the Muslim world are propping
up of dictators that's had consequences
you know you had a Obama saying that you
know Isis are direct outgrowth of
al-qaeda in Iraq that's because of our
war that's why you should usually aim
before you shoot yeah exactly and if
possible talk you know and and so so
that you know these factors are never
discussed and this is the other really
annoying thing after is that whenever
any Muslim spokesman or Muslim group or
individual says what can we talk
all the wars you've waged that I've led
to people you know social for example
the the guy in woollett who murdered Lee
Rigby what do you say he said it's to do
payback for what you've done to our
people in our lands he's talking about
foreign policy and I companies even a
convent yeah but what's interesting
though is the government said out dare
you people are legit you know they're
they're making excuses for terrorism
saying no we're not I'm just saying the
guy who's literally been caught
red-handed it's saying this is the
reason can we talk about that reason and
what happened to say are your terrorist
sympathizer your non violent extremists
and what happens is every young Muslim
that sees that they say are here we go
again it's that same propaganda and they
say dis government just isn't interested
I just cannot stress enough because I'm
talking from all the time on social
media with the work we do in the
community and they just say that you
know Rosa you want me you know you know
how I don't even feel part of this
country and that's not their fault
that's the government those that people
in power who are supposed to have some
responsibility with their words they
don't take any responsibility and they
push these young Muslims away so kids go
to school obviously they're their victim
many of them have been victim of the
prevent strategy and how do you see the
school evolving that are Muslim schools
a good idea is it the right place to
actually educate him on the very basic
tenants of Islam and how to be well law
abiding citizens or or is the solution
elsewhere well thing is for me when it
comes to you know religious schools etc
again that's a polarizing debate you
know some people think we should have
none at all for me the view is that if
people want to have that space to do you
know within their community if they want
to you know teach people within a Muslim
environment or Jewish environment or
Christian whatever that's up to them
should have that freedom but I think
what I don't like is again that focus on
your Muslim only school and that is
again what gets a lot of Muslims angry
sin that's how long you've got other
school so recently had a story about a
school in North London where the faces
of women were scratched off the
textbooks because the and there are very
ultra-orthodox Jews and you know they
weren't even talking in English all the
lessons work you know you know when it
weren't in English etc but in a less
very pernicious in he's investigating
but the government only want to talk
about Trojan horse scandal in Birmingham
which some MPs found was actually not
such a case itself and so for many
Muslims it's what RIA noise
is that it's these are genuine issues
you know let's talk about you know the
role of women in society let's talk
about this let's talk about all these
shoes let's talk about schools but the
government you don't care about these
issues because time and time again you
have shown that you're not consistent on
your outrage on these topics but
secondly all you do is a unique
everything back to extremism and it's
very frustrating for young loss in there
not everything is doing to extremism you
know it's the end if you talk to
academics you have been talking to
people like Professor David Miller from
university of bath dr. Rizwan sabir you
know who's based a little pool John
Moores these are great academics who
have time and time again shown that
there is no proof that actually religion
is the factor it may be a secondary
factor that's cool but the main factor
is that not that marginalization the
unethical foreign policy but the
government just doesn't want to discuss
and even now they've got this new
community forum where they've pumped
five million pounds into it and all the
people they've gone they're just yes men
and they'll say you know yeah you're
right it's all last mate can I some more
money and so what happens is young
Muslims say a half this organizations
they don't recognize because they've
never ever worked in the community but
then it but also like you're not being
genuinely there you just want the funds
and it's the whole thing it's leading to
and you can see it yeah the bash Muslim
for it does it it's generally good
Trevor Phillips discovered that a while
ago yeah and he discussed it as well by
the way schools in a documentary and
obviously he was against the religious
schools I just want to turn to the
social media because there was a great
response to the documentary actually of
people using the hashtag what British
Muslims really think and Luke Holland
says well I agree with Trevor Phillips
at this time for schools for our schools
to integrate and let's start with Ethan
and Harrow and to stick to that point
Dennis Fernando says so here we go about
Muslims not integrating I have had more
Muslims in my life than I have had
Etonians yeah and talking a miter gauge
exactly and but yet again that see that
Etonian argument because what they do
they talk about there's these selective
environments where is just a small group
and within a community within a
community nation within a nation all
about eaten less can we talk about the
bullying did a lot as well you know what
they
up to and that's the thing for Muslims
days and the consequences the cornice
exactly and helping their mates move up
the ladder that nepotism that they
existed but we just it for many Muslims
especially young Muslims you mean
they're seeing it social media has been
a game-changer it's allowed you access
to information that you won't have
before you know before it was if you
didn't see on mainstream media you
didn't know about it but actual on the
point of social media isn't it's sort of
channeling all our energies within a
sort of safe space we're in the living
room typing away and actually not being
active enough not actually writing
letters not perhaps protesting
sufficiently because there is genuine
frustration in all communities not just
Muslim communities although the other
ones who is viewing all this nepotism
and is seeing that there's nothing that
is being done so its social media in
this context actually a bit of a problem
it is true you know what you say that
because it is a bit of a blessing in a
bit of a curse it's a blessing in the
sense that the access to information is
unprecedented in human history knowing
what's happening right around the world
so you know what happened to the ring
gear Muslims a couple of years ago
everyone knew about you know when it
happened Israel was bombing Palestine
mainstream II didn't cover it but
Facebook and Twitter did and you and you
saw it and you couldn't run away from
what's happening but until but see
that's the things that's the blessing
element the curse element of it seems to
be that it's the sum total of activism
in some people's cases alike or a tweet
or gear hashtag trending now that has
its role don't get me wrong and it's
right to actually because it helps you
to take on you know state propaganda
forget the past exactly get the pulse
but at the same time you needs to be
both which is the underground stuff
nothing really beats a face-to-face
conversation organizing on the ground
holding people to account so look at
what David Cameron about the Panama
papers it's you know in Iceland people
are still out on the streets protesting
about what happened in yeah and their
prime minister had the decency to resign
see that's the thing but it's the ten
percent of the population went out
whereas point 0.2% of a British
population out of the street is a very
British thing which is sometimes it's we
do kind of complain from our from we
know from our sitting rooms and living
rooms I look at France look how it when
they protest they properly protest and I
think Britain has only seen this proper
maths demo obviously in the run-up of
the Iraq war and two million people
march but then
it is a disappointment because obviously
Tony Blair ambush went into Iraq and so
maybe the you know the people think but
see there is a change coming in the
sense that it's social media does lead
to more people being made aware and has
it two more people joining organizations
joining protests and marches etc so we
are seeing change it is a bit too slow
for my liking but there are groups like
unpack and others that are working on
this issue saying that look guys let's
turn this anger that we have and this
awareness that we have into something
greater and sure on the ground world
because that is so powerful and we are
seeing happen and as I am I'm hopeful or
where it's taking us and and yeah it's
true it's been a game changer the
government can't come back from that now
thank you very much whether you've been
a great guest that's all we've got time
for this week aboard the Sputnik with me
have Saqqara Mustafa standing in for
George Galloway don't forget to stay in
touch with us on twitter at RT
underscore Sputnik or on Facebook at
sputnik on Russia today until next week
it's been marvelous